Womb Service

Episode 9: Love, Trust & a 40-Page Contract

• Womb Service • Season 1 • Episode 9

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The legal side of surrogacy isn’t just paperwork, it’s where the trust gets translated into clear, protective boundaries. We’re doing an independent surrogacy journey (no agency), and we’re sharing what it really looked like to find attorneys, time the contract, and survive the constant curveballs that can come from a fertility clinic process.

If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone navigating IVF or surrogacy, and leave us a review so more intended parents and carriers can find practical guidance. What part of the legal process would you want a clinic to explain upfront?

Have a question for us? Submit it via Yaya's instagram @fromivftosurrogacy

When The Clinic Still Says No

I remember Jonathan was like, "So we can still get denied?" And he, I mean, like I said, tensions were high. We were, we went from having hit all these roadblocks for a year, or not even just roadblocks, but just delays and time spent waiting for the next appointment, that at this point we thought we were ready, and then the clinic essentially said there's still a possibility that this won't happen.

Check-Ins And Early Pregnancy Updates

Hello, hello, hello. Hi, everyone. We're back. Welcome to Womb Service. Yes, for another, uh, riveting episode about legal and contracts and all the attorney stuff and all that. So- this one's gonna be long. I- we were typing out our segments, and the more we were, like, typing and talking about it, I just kept thinking to myself, "Oh, this is gonna be a long one," but it's gonna be a good one and very informative for anyone who is considering the process of surrogacy and gestational carrying or knows someone that's going through it and trying to give them guidance in getting started. Or you're just one of our friends and family, and you just are very intrigued and interested in just how smart we are and the fact that we were able to do all of this without an agency. Oh, yes. Kudos, kudos to us and ChatGPT. Um, so- Absolutely we are here to talk about all those fun things. We will definitely make it more fun, um, than it all sounds right now, so please stick around. But- as always, we will start out with our check-ins for the week. Um, so we just recorded this last Monday, um, and that episode came out Wednesday, so we've only had a little bit of time for updates, but we'll do all the things. So on my end, um, things are going well. I've felt pretty normal. No real changes since we last talked. Um, I have been still really tired, just, like, waking up tired and then, like, throughout the day, like, my energy levels have been pretty low. I've just come down to the conclusion that I may become a morning coffee person now. So we might have to do mini coffees in the morning. Um, and I actually looked up, like, how much you're supposed to have, like, when you're pregnant and all that, and I'll be way, way below the amount of caffeine that I'm allowed to have. So we'll see if that helps. But, but yeah, just tired. I don't know if the, like, overly hungry has kicked in yet. But what else? Honestly, my, my hips and, like, where I'm doing my shots are really sore right now. Like, a lot of hard spots, which really suck. Um, so shots aren't fantastic right now, but no worries. We're still continuing with our heating pad, our massage gun, warming up the medication, and things are, things are going fine, so. And we're almost there. Yeah. Yeah, we're approaching seven, seven-ish weeks. Yeah, so we have our next ultrasound next Thursday. We're recording today on the 23rd of May, and our next appointment is on the 28th. And so that would be seven weeks pushing to eight weeks. And like we mentioned in a few episodes, shots typically are gonna go anywhere from eight to 10 weeks. So we're approaching, hopefully, our finish line so that, um, that pain will go away hopefully. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do, I do plan to ask him when I see him this, uh, this appointment, um, if everything, you know, is status quo and looks good. And I'll be like, "Oh, can we talk about a possible end date? Just so I have a light at the end of the tunnel." Yeah. Yeah, hopefully. But yeah, otherwise, no, today is beautiful out. We were, like, just playing outside. I also went to my gym this morning with the kids. Um, and they do the Murph workout, which I don't know if, if you know it, but, um, so it was a soldier who died, and he used to do this workout every day. So it's literally And it's brutal. Um- It's so intense brutal. So it's a mile run. It's 100 pull-ups, 200 push-ups, and 300 air squats, and then another mile run to finish it off. Um, so it's just fun to go out there, see everybody. And, like, I did, like, a half walk and, like, cheered them on on the way back. Um, but yeah, yeah, fun morning, fun day so far. It's Memorial Day weekend, so. Does your dad do the Murph workout? No. Um, but- Oh, I don't know why I thought he did No. So, um, my dad'll even tell you, he's very just, like, straight lifting. He's just, he's always just been a straight lifter, so I've taken him to a lot of, like, group workouts that we have at, um, JJR sometimes, and he w- he will do them with me because he likes, you know, to support me and, like, make sure that, like, we're both getting our activity in. But, but yeah, no, that's It's really not his thing. He's, he's more of a straight just, like, lifter guy. So, but yeah. Got it. Mm-hmm. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, no, this was probably my most exciting check-in because we have, um, slowed down on the need for pregnancy tests every two days. Mm. And so just checking in on Haley, and, uh, we were texting, I think earlier today, if not yesterday, and she had mentioned that she was tired. And I'm like, "Well, can you sleep during your lunch break?" Like, I'm like, "How tired? Are you napping with the kids? Should we reschedule our, podcast episode today so that you can nap with the kids?" I'm over here just like, "How tired are you?" She's like, "I'm not dying." I'm fine. Mm. Honestly. So, so yeah, I wish I had the type of job that would allow me to take, like, midday naps, but that's not a thing. We get, like, a strict half hour, like, clock in, clock out lunch. So, um, that's a no-go. Um, it's honestly, I don't know if it's mostly midday. It's more, like, mornings, and then of course, like, when I hit, like, 8:30, 9:00 PM. So, so yeah. It's definitely my kid because I'm such a sleepyhead. I fall asleep any second I get. I could sleep 12 hours, wake up, have coffee with Jonathan, and if we're laying down watching TV, I will go back to sleep. So it, it's definitely- Oh it's definitely my embryo in there. I love it. Love it all so much. So otherwise, feeling okay? Any, any crazy requests? No. I think, um, we changed our pace from every two days to Monday, so I'm looking forward to Monday's pregnancy test. Mm-hmm. Um, but no, no, no crazy request. I think for me, I'm just, you know, um, just obviously praying that our appointment goes well on Thursday, praying that, you know, we can hear the heartbeat. Um, just been thinking about that a lot. Just wanting to just make sure that, um, I keep a positive outlook Every week is, is, is one step at a time. Mm-hmm. And so this is all new, as I said to you recently after that appointment. I- it's all new to me- Mm-hmm because we've never gotten past that week appointment. So I'm just trying to breathe and just trying to be hopeful for this upcoming appointment. And everyone around us is just so hopeful and just so loving, and I- Sure I'm just struggling. I'm still struggling with getting that excited, um, because I'm just, I'm just trying to be cautious, and everyone around us is just, they're just excited as, as one would be, and I'm just trying to remind them, you know, we're still, we still got a long way to go. Um- Mm-hmm but, but yeah. Yeah. I would say that's how I'm feeling. I'm feeling hopeful, but just, I'm still holding my breath. Yeah. I mean, but hey, baby steps. Mm-hmm. You sent me your ideas for your baby, uh, your nursery. Yes. So exciting. Yes, so exciting. Um- Love that. Yeah. I was just- Um, I've been on Pinterest and adding ideas, and I, I f- I was trying to... I think it's just, like, a question that I have in my head, and obviously Jonathan and I will discuss it, but it's like, okay, at what point will we be comfortable enough to start emptying this room that I'm currently in? Mm-hmm. Because we've got two guest rooms, and we, we've always known which is going to be, like, the actual guest room and which one will be a nursery. And so the guest room that I'm currently in, which is half office, half guest room, and his closet, um, will eventually be the nursery. So that conversation I definitely we need to have eventually. Like, at what point are we comfortable enough? Is it second trimester? Is it third trimester? Is it closer to mid-third trimester? Like, at what point are we going to say, "Okay, time to start, you know, moving his clothes. Time to start selling this bed. Time to move my office over." Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm excited for that possibility. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, for me, at least during this process, I feel like I'd be super confident or I guess more confident once we reach that 12-week mark. I know that's pretty, like, a usual milestone for everyone as far as, like, development and how things are going and everything. So, so maybe then. I mean, I would definitely do it before third trimester, girlfriend. But su- surprises happen. Touché. Surprises happen, so. But hey, one step at one, one day at a time. One day at a time. Yes. Amen. Yes.

Finding Attorneys Without An Agency

Okay. All right, um, so let's start the fun part of our discussion. So- Let's get it on um, legal stuff. How did we get started? Um, so I guess the very first time that I kinda even looked into stuff was right when we started talking. So this was back in June of 2025. Um, let's see. So you sent me And I don't know where you, and you'll probably tell me where you got this. Um, you just sent me an email with, like, surrogacy resources, and it just had a bunch of different, like, general information of, like, things to look up, laws for Illinois, um, resources for me to, like, figure out about even surrogacy in general when we first started that conversation. Um, and then it happened to have two, um, listed attorneys on it. So you wanna talk about how you found th- those resources, where they came from, all that fun stuff? For sure. So I am very big about being in communities of said resources. So before we ever even really started talking about surrogacy, I'm talking when we were still doing transfers, I had joined Facebook groups with this sort of thing, just to join those conversations, just to see what was going on, what were people struggling with, et cetera. So I joined a bunch of surrogacy intended parent groups on Facebook then, And once we got to our spot where we knew that was going to be our next step for sure, I started looking up actual groups that assist in that. So there's an online group, for instance, that's called Surrogate Screening Solutions, and it is a high reputable group. It's led by Molly C and Jason Farley, and what they do is they send out weekly... like basically a weekly newsletter, and then they also do weekly Zoom calls where intended parents or people looking into that can join, and they talk about resources, they talk about struggles that people are going through. And Molly and Jason are essentially not just the moderators of the conversation, but also they come with all the knowledge, and they can basically provide the guide and help you along the way. So I was really looking at them for going to them for said guide, right? What's the next step? They handle everything outside of an agency. They let you do it, but they give you that blueprint. Then I had a call with Molly, great, and found out their pricing, and that's like $5,000. And I was just like, "Okay, definitely not gonna do this. I'm going to use the resources that I've already accumulated through said group, through the Facebook group, and use ChatGPT," because ChatGPT, guys, is a resource if you use it wisely and you double-check the work. So that's how I gathered all that information. And then the attorneys that I sent were through ChatGPT. Essentially, it gave me like 10 attorneys and a synopsis of each one. And so I just grabbed two that I thought fit kind of our portfolio and what we were looking to do. Not portfolio, but like our personalities, what we want, um, and I just felt like those two kind of stuck out Yeah. Yeah, no, and honestly, I, there were just, yeah, the two names in there, and then we were like, "All right, we're just gonna pick one." And just so everyone knows, it is a conflict of interest to have the same attorney. So each party, the intended parents and then the surrogate, um, have to have their separate attorneys when doing this process. Um, so yeah. And that stressed everyone out. That stressed Jonathan out. That stressed my mom out. Mm-hmm. That stressed anyone who had that conversation with us was like, "Why do you guys have two separate attorneys? That doesn't make any sense." Because again, Haley and I have this, you know, lucky situation where we are sister-in-laws and we are a family. So in our eyes and in everyone who talks to us, in their eyes it's like, "But you're family. Why would you need two separate attorneys?" Or like Haley said, conflict of interest. Both parties need to be protected. Mm-hmm, yeah. So it's, it's saying, like, if you were to have the same attorney, then they could inadvertently, like, be biased towards one side or the other. And ob- obviously, you would have to negotiate through anything, which I'll talk about this in a bit, too. Um, there are some hard asks, and, like, you want, you want to have someone who's on your side who can really just advocate for you, um, and not think about the other party as well. So, so yeah, that was, that was interesting. And I, I know I, um, through my attorney, Josh, he was very helpful. He was very knowledgeable, um, about all things surrogacy and s- doing contracts like this. So it wasn't his first rodeo. And then I don't know if you wanna talk about Ryan, 'cause that was a special situation as well. Yeah, Ryan, um, he used to do regular law in I don't remember what. Um, he was with a firm for many years, and his wife actually struggled with IVF. They had had losses, and they had not had any success. So- Mm-hmm they actually approached Independent Surrogacy with her sister, and when they went through the process, they just found that it was just difficult, and it was hard to find an attorney. It was hard to find someone who understood, like, what they needed and how their situation was different because they were family. And so he ended up leaving his firm and dedicating his entire work to being a surrogate attorney, which I just think is just so phenomenal. Mm-hmm. And he does... You know, he, he talks on podcasts. He has a website. He- it's, he's something... It's something he is very passionate about because it has helped him and his wife have two kids when at one point they didn't think that they would be able to. Yeah, no, that's, that's awesome. And I, I'm just so glad that, like, Ryan got to work with you because that's such, like, a unique experience to be able to have that connection with your own attorney, so. Yeah, for sure. Just kinda worked out that way. Um, but yeah, so I guess how we first made contact with each of them, I'll just talk about my experience first. Um, so I think right in July even when we were like, "All right, we're doing this," um, I just contacted him by phone and was like, "Hey," like, "um, this is my situation," and, like, I just wanted to, like, get basic info. Like how much, you know, where will your fees be? How does this work? Because mine, I believe he's out of state. I think mine's out of state. Mm-hmm. I have to look. Yeah. Um- He is. Yeah. So I was like, "How are we doing this?" Like, "Does this all have to be done in person?" Like, "Can it be done over video?" Like, I had no ideas. So talked to him briefly over the phone. He was very nice, very, like, made everything very easy to understand. Um, gave his base for this type of contract, which was $2,500. Um, and basically was like, "Nope, you just email me the general information and the contact for their attorney when you guys are ready," and basically, you know, the IP's attorney is the one who usually starts the contract and then sends it to the surrogate, um, for approval or re- review. Um, and then yeah, we kinda go from there. So, so that was back in July of 2025, and we were nowhere near ready To, to start that, um, process, which at the time we did not know that. Um, we were kind of- Yeah hoping. I mean, at that time, at that time I remember I just had this conversation with Andy and Jonathan- Mm-hmm Last July, we were so silly to think that we were going to be able to have a transfer in August, and we would start counting down. Okay, if we had a transfer in August, we'll have a baby in, um, this month. Mm-hmm. Okay, it's looking like more like a October, November, and we were just... Oh my gosh, so funny that it did not work out that way at all. I know. It really though, 'cause I, I remember that time too, and I was thinking about, like, at that point we had, like, a bachelorette trip, like, I was going on in, uh, like, out of the country, and I was like, "Oh, God," I'm like, things- if things don't line up correctly, like, this is gonna be such a mess. I was, like, thinking about, like, how I'm traveling with medications, like, what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. Like, it just... It was a crazy time. 'Cause at that point we just didn't know what the next thing was that was gonna be a block- Yeah a block for us. So we were just, yeah, very ready to get the process started, but there were a lot of things that we still needed to check off the list. Yes, and I always say God's timing is always right because it needed... I think that it just worked out really well with us starting the new year. You were able to do everything that you needed to do. I remember we talked- Mm-hmm and I said something like, "Well, it's looking more like next year, and so enjoy your fall cider and you know, just end the year with a bang." But when we started our conversation with our attorney, it was very much like that as well. I jumped on a call. I was asking, you know, "What does this process look like?" And he was more so, "Tell me what you've been through already. Let's get... Like, I just wanna become acquainted with your story and your husband's story." And then- then he explained his fee, which was 3,000, and he said, "I'm ready to go whenever you're ready to go. The moment your clinic, um, lets you know that..." And he mentioned at that point psych. He's like, "Whenever your clinic does your psych and you're ready to get started, just let me know. Send me an email." And then he walked us through what that timeline looks like as well, where it's, we would jump on a call, we would write out the contract, we would then review the contract, he would then send it to your attorney. Mm-hmm. And then he said, "From there, you won't hear from me again, and I won't hear from you until after your first trimester." He said, "As soon as that first trimester is completed, you'll contact me. I will then contact the state and start that process," because all of that stuff then has to go to the state, essentially verifying and stating, you know, who the legal guardian and parents are of the child. And then again at birth is when he'll come back in the picture and just confirm that everything is good to go. Yeah. Yeah, so a lot of little things. A lot of little things. Um, I think, I guess what prevented us from starting our process, um, 'cause we were all ready for legal,

Medical Clearance Delays And Missing Checklists

obviously. We were ready to go. We wanted, like- I guess we should talk about like what, what prevented us from doing this in the very beginning. So when we were talking to the clinic, they were basically, you know, saying that, "Hey, you know, hold off on anything legal until, you know, we're totally medically cleared," 'cause... And that makes sense. I mean, obviously you don't wanna pay attorneys a lot of money when it- this process might not even go through. Um, so, you know, waiting for all of those medical appointments that we talked about, that psych appointment, um, making sure that Yaya and John got retested for the antibodies that I had to make sure that nothing interferes. Um, what else do we have to wait on? So at that point, we're now looking at her MFM doctor clearing her in January, and then we had to get those antibodies testing in January. By then we were medically cleared, so we started the process with contracts, and then as soon as all contracts were completed, we still had another roadblock because we needed to get testing done by our clinic, additional testing, to give to the state to medically clear us before we could actually transfer an embryo to Haley. And that testing is the one for, you know, HIV, syphilis, and hep B and hep C. So yeah, it was like an f- FDA requirement by the state of Illinois. It's basically just a disclosure for the surrogate to make sure that like, hey, you should be aware of what type of DNA is being put in you, so through the embryo, through the embryo. Um, and it's basically just saying like, "Yes, I understand," like, and, "Yes, you guys have been tested for all A, Y, and Z, and we are all aware of that," those types of things. So, so yeah, that was just something that like I remember the day Yaya like texted, um... 'Cause we were like so excited. We were on like cloud nine. We had contracts done. We were like, "Oh my God, let's go. Let's get the transfer prep going." And then the clinic was like, "Er," like, "We got another thing for you guys to get tested for." We were like, At this point I feel like we were all very like strung out. Um- Mm-hmm. Tensions were high. Yeah. I just feel like, again, like someone needs to create a very nice checklist of like, hey, these are all the things that as a clinic we're going to do, and then you can easily follow it along. Obviously, everything's not gonna apply to every couple, but I think there needs to be, be a thing. Like it's... If anything, that was probably one of our biggest concerns and like issues through this entire process was we never knew what was next and we never knew when we were gonna hit that finish line. Yeah, because every time we thought we were there, there was another roadblock. And again- Yeah yeah, I think if there was a checklist, because my advice before we even get to that section of the podcast is if you're going through this, definitely do not pay your attorneys until said test. Because obviously both John and I have been tested for that prior to IVF. We can't do IVF without that test. So we knew that the clinic had those tests, but obviously it had been years, so they need to retest for the state, the state needs it. We couldn't even... Like, the test that we did was not through the clinic. We went to the clinic, but it was like an entire kit that the state sends to them. So it's, it's obviously a legal requirement, and therefore what I would tell anyone who is listening to this, if you've ever considered it, or if you're in the process and you're a true listener because this is a process that you are looking into, do not pay your attorneys until that clinic says, "We are ready to start prep." Because That is just, I remember Jonathan was like, "So we can still get denied?" And he, I mean, like I said, tensions were high. We were, we went from having hit all these roadblocks for a year, or not even just roadblocks, but just delays and time spent waiting for the next appointment, that at this point we thought we were ready, and then the clinic essentially said there's still a possibility that this won't happen. Mm-hmm, yeah. And that was a lot to, to process. It was a lot. So I mean, yeah, if, if we have any advice, try to get like, you know, when you first start out with your clinic and you know that you're gonna be doing this process, be like, "Hey, please, I really need, like, step by step everything that we need to be cleared on before we start, like, before we're able to start prep," and maybe they will. I'm sure they have Like, they know. Like, they have things they need to check off. Like, they just need to, like, have that clear communication with you. So, so yeah, I'd say that is probably the most important thing. Especially if you're going independent, because I'm sure if you're going through an agency they have said checklist. But yeah, definitely if you're going independent, um, learn from our mistakes of not knowing. You know, our ignorance was not out of not attempting to know. It was just truly just we didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, that's, that's our process for contracts.

Contract Clauses You Never Expect

Um, but let's talk about what's specifically in our contract. Absolutely. Um, so there's a lot that goes into it, and- Mm-hmm ev- when we're having those conversations, there's a lot of, "Oh, I never even considered that that needed to be in there." Mm-hmm. Um, Haley, what was the most interesting for you? I think, yeah, most interesting. I guess there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of cra- crazy verbiage in, in these contracts, and it is long. Um, I think what mostly got me is, like, when we were reading through, there's... And our contract is obviously probably different from other people's. Um, but ours specifically has just, like, a lot of verbiage on, like, termination of the contract and, like, how, you know, like, if either one of us needs, like, an out. Like, there's a lot of that. Like, and I was surprised on that. Um, but again, like, for us, like, this contract is not to, like, corral us into this situation. It gives us a lot of freedom to work with each other and, like, a lot of different scenarios and, like, if things were to go wrong or if, like, this situation were to happen. So I mean, I think that was kind of surprising to me. Um, but other than that, I was kind of surprised a lot of- on the, uh, the mileage stuff. So it li- I knew it it literally gives you, like, um, like an amount of miles that you're allowed to travel from, like, either, I forgot, it's if it's your home or if it's the where you're gonna give birth. Um, and obviously we already talked about this earlier is we don't want your surrogate to, you know, be out of state, like, when you're getting ready to give birth, because if that happens and that surrogate gives birth outside of Illinois, your contract is basically null. So that's a huge thing. Totally get it. And I know I had some conversations with Yaya about this because it was just funny. So I'm going to, like, St. Louis for Labor Day with our family, so that's obviously not Illinois. Um, and it's, we'll be early enough, so it's fine. And then there was, like, another thing. I'm like, "I really wanna go to Chicago this weekend for, like, a work thing." Um, so, so yeah, we made some little adjustments there. And obviously, I think we both had the The trust in each other to be like, obviously if I'm about ready to give birth and I'm not feeling okay and I'm not in a good, like, situation, I think Yaya trusts me enough not to, like, travel farther- Yeah than I should at that point. So th- we do have a specific situation, and that's not always the same, you know, in every surrogate-IP relationship. So just something to consider. For sure. Mm-hmm. I asked the same question- What about you? Well, I asked the same question to Jonathan because I couldn't remember. I know for me it was definitely the mileage thing. I actually negotiated that one down from how many miles it said, because again, b- for instance, I think the mileage was lesser than Chicago. Mm-hmm. And so we discussed that because that's something that you would be doing on the third trimester, and at first he was like, "Are you sure?" And I was just like, "I am." Um, so that one was interesting, and then Jonathan brought up a really good one. There were three questions that we needed to send him responses to before he could truly draft the contract. Mm-hmm. The first one was, who would be next in line to make medical decisions on our behalf? If you were going into labor, there's a question that pops up, and we are unavailable to answer it. So that question. Then if we are, hypothetically speaking, unavailable to make it to delivery because we're out of the country or something happened, which he said during COVID that was actual, a true scenario for one of his, um, uh, someone that he represented, and they were not able to go to the other state to receive their babies during delivery. So the next question was, who would be responsible for taking the baby home? And then the third question was, if something happened to Jonathan and I, AKA if we were to pass, um, and then the baby is born, who would have legal guardianship of the baby? And those three questions were just questions that we did not even consider at any point during this process, and- Mm-hmm there's questions like that that popped up even during our psych appointment where they're great questions to have, and you're just like, "Wait, absolutely, that is something for us to consider. Why wouldn't we have thought of that?" Yeah. So those are probably the three most interesting questions for us. For sure. Yep. And how about- I guess for me, when I'm thinking of like what was the most interesting thing that my attorney like posed to me, um, I think it was, it was in one of the emails before our final contract, and he was just like, "There's a lot of things that like I don't know if you've considered, like let me send you like a list that, you know, these are things that are usually in contracts, but like I understand like your situation's a little different." He's like, "I just want you to be like totally informed and not miss anything that you possibly might wanna get covered." So I guess things that, um, I was surprised on or like I didn't even think about situation is like what if I were to lose my health insurance? And like that's definitely in there and like, you know, what's covered by who. Um, and also I think the other thing was like, you know, do you want like reimbursement for like childcare and like things like that. And I was like, "Oh my God," I'm like, "We're getting into the weeds now." Um, like it's just a lot of little, little details that you don't think about in your day-to-day life that, you know, if were something, if something were to happen, if I were to have, you know, like lose, lose like a tube or an ovary from like a situation like, or from surgery or have him do a C-section. So all those things carry cost at the end of the day. But yeah, definitely things to consider, and there were a lot of things we just decided to leave out at the end of the day, and it works for us. You know? Yeah. Just from me and you trusting each other and being able to talk about things and yeah. I know a lot of people were, were surprised when they were like, "Wait, you're doing a contract? Like you guys are family, like why are you doing a contract?" I'm like, "Well, number one, um, the clinic requires it." Um, but even before that, I mean, back when we talked in July of last year, we were both like in agreeance 100% like we need a contract like- Mm-hmm just to keep everything black and white. It is something we needed, so. And I think, I think it goes back to, like, the concept of, you know, sometimes you don't wanna mix, like, business with family- Mm-hmm because that can get sticky because, you know, there's an emotional, um, toll there, and there's more empathy to, um, do things that maybe you're not comfortable with. So that contract for sure early on we knew we'd need it, just so that there was nothing that could ever be decided that maybe would make Hayley uncomfortable or us uncomfortable. I actually just, while you were talking, I realized that I forgot to mention some of the weird highlights from our conversation with our c- attorney- Hmm on things that he suggested per the contract.

Lifestyle Rules And Delivery Room Logistics

So one of them was, like, the obvious no drinking. We don't need to include that. We know that she's not gonna be drinking during her pregnancy. It's in there. Um- You told me. Oh, it is? We did include that? Yeah. Oh, we did include it? Okay, that's so funny. Um- Which, yeah, yeah. So it was, it was no, it was no drinking, and then it was no smoking, no drugs, legal or otherwise, unless prescribed. So that is in the contract. Yes, no smoking even near her. No smoking even near that baby. Um, no retinol skin products because that apparently has a adverse reaction to pregnancy and the child's development, which I didn't know, and I had just started using retinol. So he was like, "Make sure, you know, that she knows that she doesn't wanna be using retinol." And I just started, like, instantly after that phone call Googling, "Is retinol bad for me? Should I not be using retinol in my face cream?" Um, you know, questions like celibacy prior to the transfer, celibacy after the transfer. You know, like conversations when he's like, "Have you guys discussed that?" Um, the no X-rays thing was a huge one because Hayley works in a space with X-rays. And so when he said that, you know, that was one where, um, we discussed it, and Hayley, you know, mentioned, you know, everything that we do at work, you know, when I'm pregnant, I've done it before, but I'm also very protected. It's not, she's not being the one being X-rayed. She's g- you know, administering and, you know, coordinating said X-rays. So that was something in the, in the contract. And then, um, another thing that he had mentioned that I didn't consider either was, like, that initial physical custody after the cord is cut technically has to be us. So as soon as that cord happens, we have to hold the baby, which is one thing that we discussed in our psych, which is, like, the skin to, um- Skin to skin skin to skin. Um, and so we, we have discussed that Hayley will have skin to skin. We will have skin to skin. Um, but legally speaking, essentially we just have to hold the baby. As soon as that cut, that cord is cut, we will hold the baby, and then, um, you know, Hayley will have skin to skin. So a little different, of course, for- surrogate journeys that are not family. Um, essentially what typically happens is they cut the cord and then you go into another room, and that is not what we'll be doing at all. So, um, so yeah, those are some interesting things that were in there. And then of course escrow. We did not include escrow. We've talked about that lightly before. Mm-hmm. But escrow essentially is where we would pay for the entire lump sum upfront, and then the third-party agency or a third party would essentially pay out Haley in chunks. That obviously has interest fees as well as agency fees because we are paying a middleman in that sense to handle all of the escrow. We have an advantage where we don't need to necessarily have to have a middleman, so we actually opted out of the escrow situation in ours. Um, we also aren't paying, like, an outrageous amount where we need to pay upfront to prove that we're able to pay for our monthly installments, so that's also an advantage. Um, of course, it's gonna differ for anyone who's going into this, but if you are in a situation like ours, um, that could be a really, a really great way for you to also be flexible on when you start because, like we said, we started the contracts in January, but our true expenses and, um, you know, transfer prep didn't really start till March.

Escrow Or Not And Paying Directly

So it allowed us to start at that point versus You know, paying a large lump sum in January and then still having a bit of a delay of when the process would actually start. Mm-hmm. We also are able to pay her directly. Um, so there's just less red tape. There's no processing time, approval time of, you know, yes, we can give this money to her or, you know, waiting for a bank or the holiday or anything like that. Mm-hmm. So, um, I will say though that, of course, by not adding the escrow, it does add more responsibility to, um, the intended parents. So if you are not financially responsible, um, this is something that can a little, become a little bit of a pain point. So I am very blessed and lucky to basically be married to, um, a accountant by- Mm-hmm. Um, Jonathan is a police officer, but he is absolutely our accountant. And so, um, so yeah, so that is our advantage that we have where, um, he, I know he's organized. I know he's good with the payment schedule. He's structured, and he also is really good with thinking ahead with that line of communication. You know, we were in Indy last week. Haley was in Indy, and he instantly was prompted to go, "Oh, hey, Haley, do we n- do we owe you anything because you stayed in Indy prior to this appointment?" Which I didn't even think about. So again, just having someone who is just, like, on it when it comes to those types of things is just such a blessing. I am beyond blessed and lucky to have Jonathan because, um, that When you said that, I was just like, "What a perfect example of why this works for us." Um, but obviously be very mindful if you or your spouse are not that kind of people, like- Mm-hmm you're not that, you know, um- Structured when it comes to your finances. Um, not going escrow could be a little stressful for your gestational carrier if you're not on top of it. Mm-hmm. Yes, totally agree. Uh, thought on the X-ray thing when you were talking, and this just popped in my head. Um, so actually, I went to the dentist, uh, like a month ago, and she was like, "Oh, you're, you're due for your X-rays. Like, do you wanna?" I was like, "Sure." And then, like, she didn't go to grab... So usually, like, when you get dental X-rays, you get lead, like, lead on you, um, just to protect the rest of your body that's not getting X-rayed. Um, and I was like, "Oh." I'm like, "I'm pregnant." I was like, "By the way, I'm pregnant." Um, and she was like, "Oh. Oh, oh." She's like, "Yeah, I mean, we should probably just wait." And I was like, "Okay, that sounds good." I was like, "Good call, good call." Um, but yeah. She said that now, like, research or whatever, best practices show that you, like, you don't need lead anymore for dental X-rays. Huh. Yeah. Yeah, so they were like, it's such a small amount that it doesn't... Like, you get more radiation from, like, daily stuff than you do from a dental X-ray, and they're like, yeah, sometimes it shows that, like, the lead holds in radiation. No idea. So, so yeah. I just thought that was a fun fact for everyone. If, uh, you're in the dental world, shoot us some, uh, some stuff about dental X-rays. So yeah, I, uh, opted out of that X-ray, which was probably a good, a good choice. Um, so yeah, things I guess to consider from a GC point of view, um, when you're going through contracting, making sure that all your medical expenses, um- Will be covered. So basically anything that is, um, outside of your insurance pays,

Expenses And Protections For Carriers

outside of code pays, all that. And even, honestly, those types of, you know, anything you need to pay towards your insurance for that purpose should probably get covered. Um, also looking at, obviously, we said legal expenses, so making sure that's written out in there that the IP will pay for all legal expenses. That's just a usual thing. Mm-hmm. Things to consider, also looking at if you need, like, mental health allowance. So say, like, you're having a really rough time during your pregnancy and you need to go to, like, therapy or counseling or something, that should, like, should and can also be covered in your, um, contract. Talking about our monthly, um, payments or allowances, any travel expenses or things that you are buying above and beyond your normal. So like this, we're traveling to India a lot. Um, also talked about, like, maternity clothes, healthier foods, things of that nature. Also talking about childcare and making sure, like, hey, if you're having to take an extended amount of time off and maybe, like, you're not able to bring them to daycare or you're not able to do your normal things, those are things that might be covered in this situation Last is also like I talked about that loss of reproductive organs. There actually it literally says loss of reproductive organs fee. Crazy. Um, so like you could put in there like, hey, if I were to have to get my uterus removed after this for some reason, if I'm bleeding a lot or this, that would carry a cost like because obviously the surgery's gonna cost money and that situation's gonna cost money. So just huge things to consider. And just to talk on that topic too, I know that there have been people who have asked from listening to our podcast, um, one of the requirements and or things that, you know, are true to be considered is the fact that when you are looking to be a gestational carrier or when you're talking to someone that they have had, um, at least two pregnancies as well as that they are in- essentially done having future children. So the two pregnancies is very important because we wanna make sure that, you know, they are able to carry for more than just one. Not that pregnancy's a fluke, but we wanna make sure that they can do that. But, um, in terms of like why, why it's preferred for someone to say, "I'm done having kids" for myself is because of that potential loss of reproductive organs. That is a true thing that can happen in any pregnancy. And so a few people had asked me, um, you know, if I wanted to do this for, you know, in the future if I considered this, you know, but I'm truly not done having kids. Why is that a requirement? And so this is why. It's because things can go wrong and you don't want to then hold resentment that you, you spent your last pregnancy essentially for someone else versus yourself. Yeah, definitely. I mean that was huge and I think you don't really think about it until you're in that situation and obviously you just also don't want the I don't know. I feel like as a, from, like, a mental health standpoint too, like, if you aren't done having kids and, like, you have a kid for somebody else, I feel like that would be so much harder to give that, that child up at the end of this process. Um, I just think you'd be that much more, like, attached to a child. Mm-hmm. Just from my standpoint, that's mentally how I would feel, 'cause I'm like, every time we joke about it, I'm like, "Yep, like, I'm fine, I'm fine to be pregnant for Yaya. I do not wanna take it home." Um But you are gonna sleep good after that pregnancy. Like never before. Uh, yeah, yeah, so, so fun stuff. Um, what else? What else you got? Um, let's see. So we talked a little bit about those out-of-pocket expenses. Mm-hmm. Um, a few things to also consider when it comes to your contract is that legality of state versus out of state. Mm. So our attorney, for instance, was so stressed when he first saw that Haley's attorney was from out of state, and he's like, "Wait, what? Where, why is she with

Trust Versus Rules When It’s Family

him? Like, what is going on?" And he, like, pulled up his website. He needed to, you know, visually confirm for himself that he was, he is licensed in the state of Illinois. And then another kind of wrench that we had is the fact that we are both in Illinois, she will be delivering in Illinois, but our clinic is in Indiana. Mm-hmm. So our attorney really needed to make sure that all of that made sense and that it was outlined well in the contract, because different states have different legalities and different things that they require. Um, and then respecting that bodily autonomy versus contractual expectations, um, we talked a little bit about how that travel distance for Haley is a really good example of that. At the end of the day, we again have a very, um, lucky scenario where I respect and trust Haley when it comes to some of those decisions that she will make and, you know, will do in her pregnancy, because she has done this, and there are certain things that, you know, the contract may specify one way, but at the end of the day, you know- we aren't, we aren't going to be strict sticklers about, um, because again, it's, it's one of those trust versus contract kind of things for us. Obviously, it's different if it's someone that you truly don't know. You wanna make sure and trust that they're actually gonna stick to your expectations that you list out in a contract. But our contract was truly, um, I would say bare bones compared to something that maybe would be more strict if it's something, if it's someone that you don't personally know. Mm-hmm. Um, real life tension points. Were there any when reading the contract for you, Haley, um, you and Matt when you were reading it that you were just like, "Ooh, I don't like that or I don't want that in there"? And I'm trying to think back now. I feel like we already talked about the, like, travel restriction stuff. That I just have to, like, wrap my head around as far as, like, when I ha- had things going on and, like, what, what other obligations, like, I wanted to try and already do at the same time safely. So that was something, um, that we talked about earlier. And then, hmm, I know it does say somewhere in our contract, like, and we, we agreed upon this, but it did take, like, a minute for... And I remember when Matt was looking at this too. Um, it says, like, how many transfers we are, like, agreed to, to do if this, you know, if this first one doesn't work. And obviously there's a bunch of outs, like, it's not like a, a hard, a hard line or whatever. But, um, I think that was something I feel like for him when he was reading it I don't know. We didn't, we didn't include a lot of like little fee stuff, which kind of would make it more awkward. I don't know. Um, like there's a lot of like what they call like discomfort and inconvenience expenses. Um, things like, you know, you know, if you're... as a surrogate, because you are inconvenienced by, you know, starting medications, starting your shots, starting cycle stuff. You know, some, some doctors will require you to do a mock cycle. Um, so just to see how your body reacts to the certain medications before you ever get a transfer. Um, so obviously that's just time, um, time and resources that you're giving up for that. Also, like if we were to have to undergo a procedure to reduce the amount of, um, basically babies. So like if there was some type of issue where my health was at risk compared to how many embryos, babies were like inside, um, that is also like a part of that, and things that you need to consider as far as fees. If I were to need a C-section, also fee. And then lastly, um, if I were to breast, breastfeed or pump basically for, for the baby, you can also include that. Which me and Yaya talked about that, um, a lot, especially in our psych visit, and I think it was a very fitting place to talk about that because that whole situation for me, just with my last two pregnancies was very like mentally draining and like

Breastfeeding Decisions And Mental Load

mentally bad for me. Um, so yeah, um, I don't know if we even talked about that, but basically for everyone, um, I have just always struggled with, um, breastfeeding. It's just not been a good situation. I really don't have a great, um, a great reason for it. It was just, number one, always painful. Number two, just never-- I never was able to get like a good latch with either of my kids. And then pumping, I feel like until you are in that situation, you cannot think of like the amount of mental drain, and I've talked to sp- so many other, other parents on this. It's just, it is so mentally draining just because you are sitting basically most of the time in a room by yourself while either the baby's sleeping or like they're downstairs with your spouse and you are missing out on like all that time that you should be able to like- co- like cuddling with your kid or like enjoying that time, and you're just in your own bubble struggling to like feel like you're doing the right thing. And I don't know, it's just a lot of time. And yeah, so I, I gotta, I don't know. It's a huge, huge thing with a lot of people that I've talked to recently, and I am so supportive of everyone who's able to do that and takes the time and the energy and all of that to feed their baby like that. But yeah, for anyone out there who's felt the same thing, definitely know that it's okay. It's okay. Um, your baby will survive on formula. Um- Absolutely even if you don't feel that way. Absolutely. But yeah, I, I was such a hard supporter of breastfeeding, like until my second, until my second kid. It was just something I wanted so bad that it just never happened for me correctly, and that was a huge, I feel like, mental letdown. But sorry to take it over. Um- Yeah. No, I think, I think that that's such a good point because I remember when we were in our, in that psych and she brought up that question. Mm-hmm. Kudos to Matt because Matt is just such a good husband, where he cut that conversation. He just said, "Nope, she will not be doing that." And obviously, you know, whether you wanted to open up or not, that's one thing, but just to, like, have just, like, a good spouse who's just, like, protective of, you know, his, his wife and knows his wife and, and can just say, "No, she's not doing that. We're not considering that." And, you know, for me, I was just like, "Cool, not doing that. I don't, I don't need it." You know what I mean? I, I wasn't breastfed. Um, my youngest sister, Mia, who is amazing, was not breastfed. So, um, you know, if, if you can breastfeed, like, like Hayley said, right, like, what a blessing, amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Um- Yes you know, it's, it's great. Um, but no, when, when he was like, "No, we will not be doing that," I was just like, "Cool. Don't, don't need it." You know what I mean? I, I... it was not something that I... It's not something that I even would have considered even if you were open to it, I think, because, like, we're so far from one another. I also would just be like, what an inconvenience to expect your gestational carrier to be doing that when they're done, you know what I mean? Like, like, they've just popped a baby out for you. Like, no girl, go chill. You know what I mean? Um- Go chill. Yeah, it was absolutely not even something that I, that I would consider- Yeah as a need. Yeah. Honestly, if, if things would've went well with my first two, honest, I probably would've, because I would've been like, "Yeah, no big deal." Like, "Let's do it. Let's, let's ship, ship this every so often." Yeah. I don't know. Like, what? I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's ways they do that. And honestly, I am also thinking of all those, all those moms who donate their breast milk to places that do, like, breast milk banks. Amazing. Amazing people. Um, and you really... Like, I remember we used that when we were at the birth center. They have, like, a breast milk, um, bank, so you can go out and, like, basically get any amount you need, and, like, it's all tested and all this good stuff. So there's really good things out there, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But yeah. My, our, our baby will be a formula baby, and- Um, and I'm, like, at the end of the day for us, it's like I just want my healthy baby. So um- Amen we are meant, that baby will be fed. Um- Amen. Yeah,

Life Insurance Wills And Hard Conversations

yeah. So another thing, um, that was in our contract also was life insurance, which this one seems kind of straightforward, right? Life insurance. But for me, I think that this was probably the one that, not necessarily a tension point, but it just made me feel really icky to think about the fact that, like, we are essentially paying into a life insurance because Hayley could potentially, you know- Mm-hmm S during childbirth, and childbirth, that's our thing. And so it's just one of those situations where I felt really icky about the thought. And, um, that's, that's something that I sometimes think to myself and I talk to John about, where, um, you know, obviously I have a blood clot issue, and so that's why those hematomas were so detrimental to our pregnancies, was because of my- Mm-hmm blood clotting issue, that sometimes I do think that God protected us from me hemorrhaging and passing at childbirth, and that that's why maybe, you know, our pregnancies, you know, God stopped when He did, because I do believe that God protects us. And, and so, um, sometimes I think about that. And so anyway, all that to say that when we were talking about life insurance for Hayley, that thought just made me so uncomfortable because again, I don't want, I don't want Hayley to go through something for me, especially, you know, passing, um, uh, for an opportunity to give me a child. Like, that just felt really icky, and I remember when we were talking about it, I just thought to myself, like, "Oh, maybe we don't do this. Like, maybe we don't do surrogacy just because," you know, it, it just, it just brings those reality, um, topics up front and center- Mm-hmm for things that are just a little uncomfy and, and you don't wanna think about I totally agree with you on that. I feel like there was a point when my, um, attorney made a note and he was like, "Hey, they, you know, usually this is the amount that, like, they, they should cover for your life insurance, and I know that was different than what, like, you guys originally got." Um, so that was kind of weird for me, even, like, putting into the contract to, like, as an ask. Um, it was weird, but it- he literally put it as, like- You're thinking about, like, your family and what your family needs to be comfortable if you were to pass. And I'm like, like, it's just like, it is just, like, a really, like, icky thing to think about. Um- Mm-hmm we definitely also included that I think, um, for sure your surrogate is supposed to get, um, you know, a will put in or a will completed before a certain time during the pregnancy just in case something were to happen. So that's in our contract as well. Um, which honestly, we needed to anyway, so it was a good... as good a time as any. Um, definitely people, don't wait until you're older 'cause shit happens, so get your wills. Um, other than that, I don't know if I have any other, like, weird stuff that happened during our contract talks. I think it went very smoothly. We-- I think it was only maybe, like, two-week span of, like, back and forth. My attorney just had, like, a bunch of, like, little stuff that needed to get fixed. We didn't really put a lot of new stuff in the contract. We sent it to you guys. Um, your attorney sent it back finished, like, completed, um, making sure that all the edits that we needed were done, and then we signed. Um, oh, weird funny story about that.

Witness Signatures And Final Legal Wrap

Uh, so when you sign that contract, at least for us, and I think for you guys you need witnesses. Yeah. Yeah, so they basically say, like, witnesses should not be family, should not be anyone involved in the contract. Um, it should basically, like, be someone completely outside of that situation. Um, I remember we wanted to get it signed, like, right away and, like, sent back to you guys so that we could get stuff going. Um, we just literally went across the street to some of our neighbors and was like, "Hey, can you sign this contract? I'm gonna be a surrogate." So they were like- "Uh, sure." Yeah. It was probably the weirdest thing ever, but thank God for my husband, Matt. He's very, like, unapologetic and, like, doesn't give a shit. Like, he just goes out. He's his self all the time. And like you talked about earlier when we were talking about, like, him, like, protecting my mental health, like, yeah, he, he doesn't care how he makes anyone else feel. He is just- overall very protective guy and could not ask for better. But, but yeah, that was him. What about you? That was so funny. Yeah, we had to get witnesses as well, and like you, it was very much like, "Okay, I just need someone to sign this." Um, but one of the funny things that our attorney said when he was talking about the witnesses, he's like, "I don't care if it's the mailman dropping your mail off. We just need to make sure that someone signs saying that they are witnesses to you- Yes you know, having completed this contract," or whatever. Yes, yes. Um, so I, I got it, and I was just like, "Jade," one of my coworkers. I was like, "Jade, Jade, Jade, can I just have you, like, sign this real quick?" And then I went and saw John for his signature, and um, he, he did the same thing. Um, one of his coworkers, Caleb, was in the room while we were there, and he's like, "Caleb, can I, can I have you sign this real quick?" So yeah, it was, it was, it was the same case for us. It was like we just want this signed and get this sent back ASAP. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So random, so random. But, um, but yeah, that's, that's all about our legal, our legal stuff.

Start Early Keep Asking For Answers

No, no crazy legal battles. No- Mm-mm nothing, nothing dramatic. Um, everything pretty, went pretty smoothly. Um, so hopefully if you're going through the same situation, keep those things in mind. Do your due diligence and, um, definitely review who you're possibly using as an attorney. Um, I think that's very important. If you ever need any recommendations, you know we're here. Um, Hi. Um- Bella. Okay. You wanna sit with me for the last few minutes? Yeah. Okay, you gotta be quiet, okay? Hi. Hi, baby. Say hi to Titi Yaya. Hi. Hi. All right. Um- Gwen is still sleeping. Gwen- Gwen is still sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But, so yeah, I guess just making sure you're doing your research is, is a huge thing, and don't be in, don't be, I guess, um, intimidated by all of this. It does feel like a lot, um, but you can get through it. It's a very important part of your process. It protects both parties, even if you're very, very close like we are. And yeah, I think the good point is just to get going. Get going. Yeah. And that was- Is that a good John? that would be our takeaway too. Oh yeah, that is a good John. That's a good John. You wanna talk about your daddy, Grayson? Um, our takeaway is the same. Um, I asked John what his takeaway would be from all of this, and he said, um, his tipper guidance or advice would be to start sooner rather than later. And I think that that is such a valid point. Just researching, searching, you know, who you wanna go with and, um, discussing and having those conversations early on, um, will pay out much better in the long run if it's sooner rather than later. Yeah. I think, I think this is the most important point we could probably ever make on this podcast, is all of this takes so much time. So I mean, if you're in any part of our situation, even if it's not surrogacy, even if it's just your beginning stages of possibly struggling to have kids, just if anything, don't take no for an answer. Don't take everything looks fine for an answer. Like, there's so much more that can be done and checked with, you know, with both parties just to make sure that like, "Hey, everything's doing what it's supposed to," or, "Hey, what's the next step? What should we be doing?" Because obviously time is not on anyone's side, and if it's something that's a part of your dream, your life that you want, your future life, you just need to be unapologetically you and just find, find your solution because- Yeah yeah, I don't know. I just... Like, every single day I feel like I meet someone who is struggling and, like, I didn't know was, or they're doing IVF, and it's just crazy. So like I remember we talked about the statistic on how many people struggle or do IVF, and in my real life, that's half, which is so- Depressing to think about. But yeah, don't take no for an answer. Yeah. You guys can do it. Yes. And I would say, um, we didn't really touch on the point, but I think going back to Jonathan's point of like starting sooner rather than later- Mm-hmm starting to save for the attorney fees sooner rather than later. Because there's just a lot of expenses with anything that has to do with fertility. Whether you're having infertility issues or not, you know, there's just a lot of expenses. And, um, in the IVF world and gestational carrying and surrogacy, there's a lot of out-of-pocket expenses, and this is one of them. And this is, you know, one of the big ones, um, before you even start paying for like meds or anything like that. Mm-hmm. So, um, just, you know, plan and, um, save sooner rather than later so that it's something that when the, when the opportunity truly presents itself, you can move forward with it. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah. Agreed 100%. If I was blonde, I could say we're legally blonde over here, but none of us are legally blonde. Uh, so, so yeah, take our stuff with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day, this is our contract and legal talk.

Next Ultrasound Hopes And Goodbye

So we hope you guys enjoyed that. Next time we talk to everybody, we will have an update on our ultrasound next week. So hopefully, um, you know, everything goes well, and just be thinking of us and yeah, we're, we're excited to get to next week and our next milestone. Thank you, everybody. Love you. Bye everyone. Love you. I'll talk to you later. I love you. I love you. Bye. See you later.