Episode 7 - This Should Be Covered (Insurance Talk)

A positive beta should feel like pure joy, so why does it sometimes feel like a trap door under your feet? We’re talking candidly about beta hCG numbers, the “it didn’t double” panic, and what helps us stay grounded while we wait for the first ultrasound. 

Then we shift to the part of surrogacy that has surprised us the most: insurance. We break down the difference between infertility coverage and maternity coverage, why “covers infertility” can still mean you’re paying for IVF meds, PGT testing, embryo storage, or even transfers out of pocket, and how quickly costs can swing based on the plan and the pharmacy network. 

If you’re navigating IVF, surrogacy, gestational carrier coverage, or just trying to understand your options during open enrollment, this conversation will save you stress and help you ask better questions. Subscribe, share this with someone who’s in the thick of it, and leave a review to help more families find us.

0:00

The First Insurance Hurdle

0:23

Beta Test Week Emotions

10:39

Numbers Anxiety And Waiting To Breathe

20:15

Lab Logistics And Standing Orders

29:10

Insurance Coverage Types Explained

30:33

IVF Coverage Reality And Hidden Costs

38:30

Maternity Coverage And Surrogacy Exclusions

41:25

Paying For An ART Risk Assessment

45:50

Birth Center Billing And Payment Plans

49:30

Transfer And Meds Not Covered

51:58

Specialty Pharmacy Shipping Chaos

57:18

What Keeps Us Level Headed

1:03:52

Wrap Up And Send Questions

Transcript

The First Insurance Hurdle

0:00

by the time that we got the insurance that we wanted, turns out that our clinic didn't accept that insurance that year anymore. And so- Oh my God. Yeah. So that was like- Oh our first hurdle.

Beta Test Week Emotions

0:23

Hi. Hi. Hi again. Hey, baby mama. Hi, hi, hi. Welcome back, everybody. We are here for another episode. We're here for another episode of Womb Service. You got it, and it's a super fun one for us, so we're talking about insurance. Yes, all of the ups and downs of insurance. Welcome to what has probably been the hardest part of the entire surrogacy process. Yeah, definitely. But before we get into all that, let's, let's check in. Let's check in. So how are you doing this week? I have felt so many emotions, um, because this week would be starting on Monday, which was beta test- Mm-hmm and then our second beta test on Wednesday, and yeah. So I've had so many emotions. I've been all over the place. Um, how about you start? Because- I, I feel like I, I have gone through so many emotions this week, and I don't want to, take away from your feelings first, and, and I wanna hear from you, because we haven't talked about it. We haven't talked I've tried. First of all, you left me on read. I text you on, like- When? E- yes, either Monday or Wednesday. I'm like, "How are you feeling? Tell me three feelings or emotions that you're feeling right now," and then you didn't respond. And I'm like, "You know what? This is why we have the podcast. I will ask her at the podcast how she's actually feeling." And I know- Yeah w- we're busy at work. You've got the kids, but I was just like, this is exactly why the podcast has been so beneficial for us, because it makes us sit down and stop everything and just talk. Yes, 100%, and- Right now I can't even remember what we were doing Monday. Okay, so yeah, Monday I was off. Um, I went in right at 6:30, got the blood test. I was the first one there, it was great. Um, and then ended up getting that blood test back within, like, an hour. Um- Like, what the heck? Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was actually at home taking a urine pregnancy test on a, uh, like, video call with Yaya, John, and Matt downstairs. Mm-hmm. And then my phone came up with a notification as we were waiting, and I was like, "You won't guess. Like, this literally just popped through." So, um, so yeah, for that result ended up being, if you haven't followed us on our, um, Facebooks or whatever, um, that was 227.5 for the beta HCG. Um, I don't know what I got in my head. I just thought it was gonna be higher. I- and I don't know what, like, a normal number is for that early. So, um, and I think compared to yours it was kind of similar? I can't remember. Um, but so I think that I was like, "Okay, well, at least it came back positive." Right. And then immediately we looked at the urine test, and it was like, "Oh, we're also positive." So, like, we got two positives, which was awesome. Um, I think I was feeling, I was feeling happy, but then I was also dampened by the fact that I knew we had so many more milestones to hit. So, so happy, and then, I don't know, just kind of, like, nervous again for the second beta in the next two days. Um, so overall it was a fine day. I think I kept myself busy. I think I had a work thing that I went in for. Um, something else, 'cause I remember I I saw your text come through and I was, like, doing something, and I was like, "I'll respond in a little bit," and then I saw it later and I was like, "Definitely didn't respond." I do that all the time. And I was like, "Oh, that did not go as planned." Um, so yeah. I think the next day I was, like, waiting for the doctor's office to be like, "Yo," like, "Is this good? Is this bad?" Like, "What do we have to do?" Like, and I think Dr. Jarrett, you said, called you Monday afternoon or later in the evening. So he kind of already said, like, "Hey, we're gonna do another beta, and everything looks okay," cautiously, like, hopeful thing. So, so yeah, I messaged the next day at the clinic and I was like, "Hi, um, I need another order," or whatever, and she's like, "Oh, they're standing orders." And I was like, "Okay, I'd feel really good if you just re-sent me an order." Yeah. I'm like, "The last thing I want is to go to the lab at 6:30 AM and not have anything to get my beta, and, like, not be able to do it before my day of work." So- Definitely helped with the anxiety of getting the, the second order in, so. So yeah, in the second beta, which I won't lie, I was a little disappointed in the number because, again, thought it would be way higher than it was. Um, but it ended up being 430.89. So not quite double, but everyone we basically talked to was, "No, everything looks, looks as it should. Keep doing what you're doing, and we'll see you in two weeks for an ultrasound." The longest, it's like, "Oh, you had to wait two weeks to find out if you're pregnant. Now let's wait two weeks to find out if you're still pregnant and there's anything there." Yes. Yes. 100%. So another two-week wait, guys. Um, luckily it's a little less than two weeks, but it's, it's still gonna feel like a wait. I, I feel like I'm I'm comfortable. I'm feeling comfortable. I know, we- we'll talk about some, some crazy stuff later that Yaya's asked me to do every other day. Um, but, so I, I feel like I'm keeping myself busy, so I, I've just been kind of, like, busy at work so I haven't really thought about it too much. I also have a friend's wedding coming up next week, so I have a lot going on next week. Um, so I don't feel like I'll have a lot of extra time to just sit and ponder. Um, but yeah, so I'm, I'm overall feeling good. Overall feeling good. I am just, I think I honestly felt better after the second urine test. So Yaya's asked me- to take a, take a pregnancy test every two days, which I'm like, "Sure, babe. Whatever. Like, I don't care." Um, 'cause who doesn't like to take urine pregnancy tests? Um, but yeah, the second one, actually the line was a lot darker than the first one, so that was like, oh my God, like- Yeah my H- my HCG levels should be higher by now. So, so we'll see what tomorrow looks like. It's the die stealer. The die stealer, which I learned from Google. Um, just when that- Just when that first line looks darker than the control line, so that usually means that your HCG is higher, so. Mm-hmm. Means we're pregnant pregnant. We're really pregnant. Yeah. We're really pregnant. Yeah, you've got a super busy upcoming week that I do. With the wedding, and, and I think not just, like, being in the wedding, but I just, I know you, so I know that you're going to be helping with making sure that everything is good and that she's good and- Mm-hmm so yeah. Yeah. You've got a lot on your plate coming up. Yeah. And it's Mother's Day weekend. What are you doing for Mother's Day? Oh, I don't think we're doing too much. Matt will be working tonight, so we'll just go and grab some breakfast, um, in the morning before he goes back to sleep. Um, my mom comes home from Florida tomorrow after being- Nice gone for more than a week. So, um, we'll go and see her when she gets home. The kids all love it. They miss her, obviously. Um, they're there all the time, so it's been, it's been a long week without, without Grandma. Um, but yeah, just hopefully relaxing, and hopefully this will be your last Mother's Day without- Without a baby little babies. Without little babies. I hope so. I pray. I know. I know. Um, but yeah. We did it. No, yeah. I, my week was all over the place. So I'm gonna touch on a few things that Haley mentioned. So first, we had the beta test that she went to in the morning, and like she said, her results came in within an hour. And everyone that I have spoken to has said that they were also surprised, because my results never came in till, like, 3:00 PM, and everyone knew that. And I mean, I anticipated that we would be waiting, you know, all day to see the numbers. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so that was a super amazing, pleasant surprise. And the first numbers, I know that you mentioned that you were a little like, "Oh, no, I wish they would've been higher." The first number, I didn't think that at all. I was just so excited. I'm like, "Okay, it's above 100. This is amazing." And then the clinic didn't call Haley, and I sent a very sassy email to them. And I said, "Hello. I received a call from Dr. Jarrett, and he let me know, you know, everything was great." And, which was a great call because he's obviously been with us for a very long time, and so he called me and he's like, "Hey, one day at a time." And then he's like, "But we've got good news." He's like, "Haley is pregnant, and that's very, very good." Aw. And then I said, I said, "Oh, my gosh." I said, um, "So she'll do another beta on Wednesday?" He's like, "Yep, she'll come, she'll, she'll do another beta on Wednesday." I said, "And so, like, when would that put us for an ultrasound?" And then he was like, "All right.

Numbers Anxiety And Waiting To Breathe

10:39

One day at a time." Yep, yep. He's like, "We're not gonna get ahead of ourselves." Mm-hmm. "We're gonna do one day at a time. We're just gonna celebrate the celebrations." Mm-hmm. And I said, "You know what? You're right. You're right." Because he knows me. I am a master of overanalyzing, planning ahead- Mm-hmm Googling, looking at everything and anything, and so I think he was just kind of like, "Nope, we're not gonna do that. We're not gonna jump ahead. Let's just- Mm-hmm let's just take this one at a, one day at a time." So that was really good. But then- Hayley said the clinic never called her to go over the numbers, which I was like, "Okay, that's not okay." So I sent a very sassy email, um, which at this point I think I'm like their, their new Karen of patients because my email essentially said, "Hi, I received a call from the doctor letting me know that my gestational carrier's beta came back and everything was great." Hayley did not receive a phone call from... Because typically you get a phone call from the nurse. I never used to get a phone call from Dr. Jarrett. It used to come straight from the nurse. Mm-hmm. And I said, "She didn't receive a single phone call from any nurse explaining the progesterone level, explaining the beta, explaining what's next." Mm-hmm. I said, "Obviously I was able to give her the next steps- Mm-hmm because I've done this," I said, "but it is still the job of the clinic to do this and to assure their patient, Hayley- Mm-hmm that everything worked out and everything's, like, on the right track." And our nurse responded. Did they respond? Yeah. Yeah. Our nurse responded, and she said, "Hi, I've been in communication with Hayley via the portal." I'm gonna, I'm gonna literally look at my portal right now, uh, 'cause I'm gonna be like- She said, "I've been in communication with Hayley. Everything turned out great. She will be receiving a phone call. We were just waiting for her progesterone levels to come back," which they didn't come back- Like late that night with her beta test. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They came back later. I had sent the email I think, mm, Tuesday morning. So she said, you know- Oh "She is going to receive a phone call. We were just waiting for all of her labs to come back before we called her." And I just said, "Thank you." Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, so, uh- I was so upset yeah, it was mostly just, like, for me, like, I 100% agree with calling the intended parent first, like 100%. I think it is, at the end of the day, like, it's their baby. Like, it's, like they're in the driver's seat kind of. Like, yes, I'm the patient and I'm a part of that process as well. I just, yeah, I just expected just, like, even a message, like, after you got the phone call that was like, "Hey, your, you know, your HCG looks good, which totally fine. We didn't receive, you know, your two others yet." Like, you know, like, "Hey, we didn't- Right receive your two other ones yet, and we will be in contact with you after that fact." Like, hey, just open communication. Right. And I think everybody wants that. I think not- So not just that, but, like, imagine if you and I were not in communication. Yes, yes. You know what I mean? Which is- sometimes the case for people where they're not close to someone, where they're not on FaceTime with their, you know, with their carrier at 6:00 AM- Yeah doing a urine test. You know what I mean? So I just, I thought that was really icky, so I, I sent a very- Yeah sassy email. And then on Wednesday for the betas test, um, I, I'm not gonna lie, I looked at the number, and you sent it, and you're like, "Didn't quite double. We'll wait for the call." I was like, "Dot, dot, dot." I know. You said, "It didn't quite double. I, uh, will wait for the call." And instantly I sent you, like, something assuring because- Yes, you did you know, like I, I didn't want your mind to spiral because I've- Mm been there. I know what the spiral is like. And that's what I was telling my mom. I was talking to her about it, and I said, "I knew the moment she saw that number didn't double, her mind started to spiral." And I said, because I've been in those shoes where you are looking at the numbers, you're analyzing them, you're putting them into... There's, like, beta calculators online, and you're trying to figure out, like, what... Is this good? Is this bad? And so I did the same thing. I took your numbers, and I sent it over to Claude, my favorite AI assistant. And I said, um, "These are Hailey's numbers." Mm-hmm. "This is the, the date of the first one, the date of the second one. Are these good? Are they not? They didn't double." And turns out that gone are the days of where it should double within those 48 hours. It should double within 72 hours. Hmm. And so you just want to see an increase of at least 60%, which yours was in the 90% increase. Mm-hmm. So we were so good. Yep. Um, and so I saw that. So Wednesday at first glance of that number, I too spiraled a little bit, and then I felt good after that. And then I remembered, which I think h- was your mantra pretty early on, your body has done this. Mm-hmm. Your body has done this. Your body knows not to attack the embryo. You know, I get it. An embryo is technically a parasite when it's, when it's, when it's in our bodies at that stage, but your body has done this before, and I just kept telling myself that. Like, your body has done this, and it has done it twice, not just once. It has done it twice. At the end of the day, our bodies are different, and your body has done this. It's not you, you're, you- Mm-hmm don't struggle with infertility, and that is the benefit, right, of this entire process. So, so that was Wednesday. And then yeah, my emotions this week, I... It was very different. I... It didn't hit me. Mm-hmm. I don't think it has hit me yet that you're pregnant. Um, I know that you are. I know that, um, it's working, but I think I'm just so scared. I'm just cautiously hopeful. Mm-hmm. And my friend Emily, she made a good point where she's like, "I don't think you'll ever not feel this until you hold your baby." And- 100%. Mm-hmm I, yeah, I think, I think because I've, I hit certain milestones in our journey in all of our pregnancies, I think that I'm just, not that I'm overanalyzing it, not that I'm being pessimistic, but I think that I'm just holding my breath. So like the first beta came back, and just like you said, we still had a lot of milestones to go. Mm. And I felt that, where I was like, "This is amazing. Step one complete, but we still have second beta." Mm-hmm. And then second beta came, and I'm like, "Amazing, but we still have the ultrasound." Yeah. I, I walked into ultrasounds excited to see something on the ultrasound monitor and was told there was nothing. So tho- those, those were probably the hardest drive, the hardest drives back home- Mm-hmm was when I expected something there when it wasn't- Mm-hmm versus when I already knew I had a miscarried. We went, confirmed it, and then drove home. So those drives at those ultrasounds were the hardest for me. So I think that for me, I'm just holding my breath. I just, I know that everything's working- Mm-hmm but I'm just too scared to get too excited. So I- Yes. Yes so I've been feeling, I felt that, and then my friend Emily came over on Tuesday, and we just, you know, we talked, and we just talked about, you know, God's mercy and all of, you know, the, the blessing that this is. And I felt a lot better after that visit, and I'm not in a bad state. I'm not pessimistic. I'm not in a negative state. I think I'm just cautiously hopeful. Mm-hmm. I just, um, I still say things like, you know, we were at their house on Thursday, and I still catch myself saying things, and I think I will. I think that's normal, but I still catch myself saying things like, "If we ever have a nursery, Dane, would you be able to do our accent wall?" You know- Yeah I, I asked him that, and then Emily said, "When you do your nursery." And so I think, I think stuff like that is just embedded in my brain, where it's, it's always going to be a question mark until it's not. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think through this entire process, and I even, whenever I, um, you know, look stuff up about, like, our podcast topics and, like, things like that, like, there's something I feel like that always pops up, and it's like the, talk about the feeling, you know, of always being cautiously optimistic even until birth. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like when you're so used to having things go wrong, that's just what your mind automatically, like, reverts back to, where, like, you're always looking for the next shoe to drop, unfortunately. So, so yeah. We will just work on being uber positive and just- Mm-hmm celebrate every little win, like we talked about- Yes and, and just go from there. But, but yeah.

Lab Logistics And Standing Orders

20:15

So other things about beta test days that I didn't even talk about was, that was unexpected. So I just decided to go to my hospital where I work. So I'm sure that's kind of why I had a really fast resulting on my beta test. Um- They were also ordered as stat, so that usually means they will do them as fast as they can. Um, and it does depend on if, like, the clinic or the hospital needs to send that, that blood sample to a different hospital or something of that nature. So I'm sure clinics have send out stuff that needs to get done, and that's why it takes a little bit longer. Um, but so yeah, I when I called this lab, like, a week before, 'cause I did not wanna go to all the way to Indy just for the blood tests, um, my backup, I was gonna go to Christie Clinic in Champaign, which was where, um, Yaya went for her past ones. But I was like, "Okay, if I can find somewhere in town that'll do it, then we're all good." Um, when I first called the lab, I just talked about the beta test, the beta HCG, and she's like, "Oh yeah, that's We, we can do that stat. Like, it'll come back same day." I was like, "Perfect." I didn't even think about to ask them about the estradiol or the progesterone on that phone call, so unfortunate. Um, if you are also in this position and you're looking for a lab to do your, um, same-day tests, make sure you ask about all three, because- what I found out day of beta test was I received the beta test, and I was like, "Awesome." It was within the hour. I was like, "Okay, I'm not receiving my other two blood tests back." So I was waiting and waiting. I was like, "Okay, I'll wait till noon," and then I called the lab, and I was like, "Hi," like, "These were all stat." Like, "Are they resulting?" Like, "What's the deal?" And she's like, "Oh, those are send-outs." And I was just like, "Hmm." And I was like, "I was like, you're kidding, right?" So yeah, they were sent out to Peoria, which is usually where our hospital sends all send-out labs. Um, so and they were like, "Oh, it will probably result in one to two days." And I was like, "Oh," I was like, "Oh, no." I was like, "This isn't what I did not want to happen." So I immediately messaged the clinic. I attached my beta result, and I was like, "If you didn't see this already, like, here it is." Um, and I was like, "Just heard from the lab. Those other tests might, you know, won't be back till tomorrow." Um, I forgot what they said back. It was, like, a little delayed, too, so I was like, "Okay, hope this is fine." Um- Like, here I am, anxious. Um, but they ended up coming back later that night, and I think that was after the phone call that you had with Dr. Jarett. So, um, the clinic didn't get those results either next day. So something happened with communication between Peoria, where they got my send-out labs, and then the clinic. So I ended up just sending them the results, um, but they said that they were gonna request them themselves. So, so yeah, um, that was, that was a problem. Luckily, um, those numbers came back and they were okay. I was trying to look at- what the results were, but for some reason my app is being really weird. Um, but I think the progesterone and the estradiol, estradiol came back just fine. Um, when I went back for my second beta, I did confirm with the clinic. They said, "Oh, you just need the beta test. You don't need to do the progesterone or estradiol or whatever." Um, but of course when I was there she was like, "Oh, these are ordered." And I was like, "Yep, you can pull them." Like- Yeah. Like, like, yep, if they're ordered and it's still, like, a standing order, like, yeah, just go ahead and take the blood test. Like, I'd, I'd rather know personally. Mm-hmm. Um, just because if your progesterone or, um, estrogen levels vary or decrease, that could, um, cause issues with the implantation. So I just wanted to know which- Yeah which happily they were both, um, higher than before, so it was great. Yeah. And your progesterone increased, which is amazing. Haley mentioned the pregnancy tests of every other two days, and so that is kind of one of my, that's my first cycle request for Haley. Um, and it's, it's mainly because, okay, so after your second beta, as we said, you wait about two weeks, a little shy of two weeks to go in for your first ultrasound, which is timelined at six weeks. So when we go in, Haley will be technically six weeks pregnant, and there's not a lot of pregnancy symptoms prior to that. So- I used to do this, um, thing just for my own nerves where I would do an at home pregnancy test every two days after the beta tests, where I could tell if the line got darker faster- Mm-hmm or slower than the one prior. And then of course how dark it was. So I, I messaged Haley a co- um, a few days ago, and I'm like, "Haley" "I'm ready for my first cycle request." And I said, I asked her if she would be willing to do it, and she said she would. So, um, yeah, that first pregnancy test that she did at home after, two days after beta was a dice-stealer, like she said. And yeah, it's a little bit of a cycle request, but I personally have been able to essentially see when a loss was coming, um- Mm-hmm based off of that. You know, there was one where, like, it, it didn't get as dark as the other one, and I'm like, "Well, maybe I just, I drank a lot of water." And then I did it again the next day, and it was even lighter, and I was just like, "All right. Okay." So, um, just one of those cycle requests. I'm sure we'll get more, um, through this process. But thank you so much for willing to do that. Um, what, what are, if any, have you had any physical changes so far where, like, breast tenderness, anything where you're like, "Maybe"? W- I, I don't think I've had a lot of physical symptoms. I felt kind of, I won't say fully nauseous this morning. It was, like, a little, like, I don't know, this feels a little weird, a little bit different than usual. Um, so I don't know what that was. Um, I also... How I really wanna know when we go, um, for the ultrasound if they can tell where, I'm sure they can tell, where the baby implanted, just because I feel like I've been having more, like, twingy feelings on my right. Mm-hmm. So I'm just like, "Wow, I wonder if that's actually gonna be a thing or just, like, my body- That's so cool doing stuff." So nothing really. Um, once again, yeah, I'm just, just riding along. But hey- Yeah your, your request is not totally crazy. When I read it, though, I was like... I was like, "Okay, that's fine." I'm like, it, it's no issue for me to do it. Like, and number, number one, too, like, who doesn't wanna take a pregnancy... Okay, I guess some people don't wanna take a pregnancy test, but they're just fun. You're like, "Oh, my God," like, "Something happened." So I don't know. Yeah. It's, it's fun. And it's just, it is fun to look, like, between the pregnancy tests to see, like, the difference, so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You said something. Mm-hmm. Oh, the nauseous- the nauseous feelings that you felt. Mm-hmm. Just FYI, if you do get morning sickness throughout this pregnancy, which I know you didn't with your last two- Mm-hmm that would be Jonathan's fault. Yeah, morning sickness- Why? is a direct result of the male sperm and their health. So if- Is it really? Yes. So if like the guy- No, I did not that's, mm-hmm, so that's why when, um, people are trying to conceive or, um, start IVF, a lot of times, like, the male will stop drinking or stop smoking or get really, like, healthy with, like, their food and working out, and that's because that's directly correlated with your experience with your pregnancy. And I'ma be honest- Mm-hmm Jonathan tried it a few times, but he wasn't the healthiest. So if you get- Ugh if you get morning sickness, you can blame him. Damn it, John., Guys, if you're listening out there and you're going through this process possibly, it does take, like, almost three months. Yes. So, like, you have to make changes, like, three month before that. You can't do it, like, the week of. Like, that's not how it works. So yeah. That was s- that was a huge topic in our household. Oh, God. I'm not surprised. Not surprised. All right.

Insurance Coverage Types Explained

29:10

Shall we get to the fun stuff that's not- Let's get to the fun stuff that's not that fun. Um, so yeah, like we said, we're gonna talk about insurance. Um, so we are just talking about our personal experience. Obviously, all of this is gonna be very dependent on you or your insurance and all that, so please don't take us as, like, a God's word type thing. Um, so different coverages that we're gonna talk about today. There is the infertility side of coverage, and then there's just regular, like, maternity coverage. So infertility coverage, and we'll have Yaya talk more about this since she's had more of the experience with this, but things that it may cover, does not mean it's going to cover everything. Fertility testing, IVF cycles, transfers, um, monitoring appointments, blood work, ultrasounds, fertility medications, egg retrievals, and sometimes all those costs that come with, um, embryo freezing and then storage. So the important catch on this is obviously some plans completely exclude IVF, so that is insane. So, why don't you talk about your experience with your insurance over the years and, like, how things have been covered or, like, how you've had to make changes. How's that been for you? Yeah, for sure.

IVF Coverage Reality And Hidden Costs

30:33

So- so my colleague at the time who referred the clinic had Health Alliance, and she knew that they accepted it. At the time, I didn't have insurance, so I knew I had to get Health Alliance, and then we would wait until the following year when we could start. So all in all, by the time that we got the insurance that we wanted, turns out that our clinic didn't accept that insurance that year anymore. And so- Oh my God. Yeah. So that was like- Oh our first hurdle, was like obtaining the insurance that we thought would work, and then the insurance actually wasn't an insurance that they were accepting moving forward that year. so my first tip would be, you know, contact the clinic, ensure that you understand what insurance, uh, plans they do accept, and then start your research process. Because I went about it where I thought I could just do it on my own and just look at their website and things like that. Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of things in the background that you just don't know s- that are going on at, at, at clinics sometimes. And so- Mm-hmm um, that would be my first, my first tip, would be find out what your clinic accepts and then go from there before- Mm-hmm you do anything. So because of that hurdle, I went through Marketplace for insurance, and I was paying about 700 to $800 a month for about two years for my monthly premium- Wow just to have IVF coverage. Yeah. So i've actually had, like, five different plans when it's all said and done during our IVF journey. And, um, it really just all falls back on who does your clinic accept, and do they actually cover infertility? Because like Haley said, there's so many things that you want to get covered, right? You first need to get fertility testing. They need to be able to actually say that you need IVF or IUI or whatever the case may be due to infertility. They have to essentially prove that you need this in order for your insurance to cover those costs, if they do cover them. Mm-hmm. Our insurance has never covered, um, PGT testing, so that's an important catch as well. Mm. So PGT testing is when they test your embryos to see if they would be viable, if they have any genetic issues. Um, so that has never been covered by our insurance. We did that for our first egg retrieval, and I wanna say that was about $500 per embryo, and that can vary. Our medication was not covered for our first one, and that was about $8,000 for our, um, our first egg retrieval. And our second egg retrieval, thankfully the new insurance that we were on did cover it, and we only paid about $300 for the medication for that egg retrieval. And I was so ecstatic and happy because that was a huge difference in cost. Um, and yeah- Storage Yeah, so storage for your embabies, essentially, um, our clinic covers it in a cost for the first year, and then after that you basically cover, like, think of it like a hotel storage fee for your little embabies. So the first time I got that invoice in the mail too, I'm like, "What the heck is this?" And yeah, they, they need to be able to store. It takes a lot of resources for them to keep them frozen and You know, isolated- Mm-hmm from others as well, so it's a huge process. But yeah, I would say important catches for sure is if you are wanting PGT testing, embryo storage, and also medications. I think the medications is a big one, because your clinic is not gonna provide it, and your pharmacy down the street will not be able to provide it. It goes through an actual reproductive third-party pharmacy, and so they'll ma- mail all of that to you. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, I think big things here is, I mean, classic insurance world, it... I just had this happen the other day too where, like we said, some insurances will probably cover the diagnostic testing for them to say that, yeah, you, you have infertility, but then they're like, "Oh, sorry, can't do anything to help you after that." Insurance is very based off of the sicker people do not get coverage, and that's terrible. Mm-hmm. Like, like most insurances are like, no, we're... They're a business. They're not gonna wanna give over more money for people who are going to require more money for being sicker, which is insane. Like, I, I think I had, like, a high cholesterol level, like slightly high, like, last year. My, during my yearly physical, my doctor was like, "Hey, might as well just get, like, a full blood workup, like no big deal," so I went and got regular tests. They were regular tests, like CBC, CMPs for any medical people out there, like easy stuff, and then it all came back and I had like a $600 bill for blood work. I was like, "Huh?" Never in my life have I ever- Mm-hmm had to pay more than, like, a co-pay on blood work. Yeah. And I, like, called and was like, I was like, "Why am I having to pay money on this?" And they're like, "Oh, it's because the doctor put in that you had high cholesterol. Like, literally, it's because he said that and put it into, like, the order for the blood test, that's why it's not covered." I was like, "Cool. Great. Thank you," and of course that- Cool cool. Like, unless I'm gonna go to bat with the doctor, which I don't have the energy for that, then no thanks. But yeah, insane. Insurance is the worst. Um, things to consider when- Mm-hmm looking to do IVF, like we said, right? Find a clinic that accepts insurance. Um, but there's also other things that could help you cover costs. So there's a company called Bundle, B-U-N-D-L, Bundle Fertility, and they help cover costs in a bundle. So essentially you would pay for multiple cycles at a lower cost. So they may even have payment plans. The catch is, is that you're paying for multiple cycles. So you may think to yourself, "I'm only doing one cycle. I, I may only need one cycle." Um, the reality is that a lot of us in the IVF community end up having to do multiple cycles because, like I said in an earlier, earlier episode, it is a science experiment. The doctor is just trying to figure out what is it going to take to be able to create eggs using this medication. Um, did, you know, do we need to up this medication or lower this, combine this or that, um, just for eggs in general, just to be able to get embryos. And if you're lucky enough to get embryos, it's still a science experiment. Mm-hmm. What do we need to do for your body to implant? What do we need to do for your body to maintain a pregnancy? So Bundle Fertility is really great. Also, this is not a paid advertisement, but Bundle Fertility is really great. Um, and they also have this thing where they almost have like a, I, I don't wanna say guaranteed or your money back, but if after all of your multiple cycles you still don't have a bring home baby, they will reimburse you anywhere from 50% to 100% of what you paid. So let's get into a little bit of the maternity coverage side

Maternity Coverage And Surrogacy Exclusions

38:30

of things. So this- Yes this obviously I know that my insurance covers this, but this is the part that is a little, like, gray. So maternity coverage usually will cover your prenatal appointments, OB visits, ultrasounds, lab work, any delivery costs, a hospital stay, um, usually postpartum. Well, my postpartum care, yes. And then usually you will also get bab- baby coverage through that once you have the baby. In this situation, the baby coverage will then get switched to Yaya's, so the intended parent's coverage. Um, so that's kind of like the gray area that we'll get into. Um, but- Also an important thing to call out with maternity coverage when you're a surrogate, some insurances will not cover you if you're a surrogate. Mm-hmm. So this is insane. Um, some policies will specifically call out that the... you will not be covered if you... it's a surrogate pregnancy or you are a compensated surrogacy. So how they get around that is basically they're saying that it's a choice. Like, this is a third party pregnancy. It's not a medically necessary, which is insane. It's insane to me that, like, that's how they get around things and, like, be like, "Yeah, you're pregnant, but it's not really your baby and you didn't have to be pregnant." Like, it's just like mind- It's like you didn't have to be pregnant and that- Yes it's a choice thing is so funny because it's like, that's any pregnancy. Yeah. Right. Right. Every pregnancy. Exactly. Yeah. They say it's a 30- third party engagement than a medically necessary pregnancy. That's literally what they put. So- So what you're s- Go ahead. So what you're saying, so what you're saying is that if an insurance, um, for... if a maternity plan does not cover if you're a surrogate, that means your prenatal appointments would be out-of-pocket, your OB visits would be out-of-pocket, lab work, delivery, delivery, which I have heard is very expensive. Mm-hmm. Delivery would be out-of-pocket, all of that stuff. Yes. Yeah. That's scary because it's probably in very fine print. Yeah. So, and I know a lot of things I have seen, like here's some other tips. If you ever talk to your insurance company, you're supposed to make sure that you get, like, people's names. You're supposed to get, like, a reference number of your call. You're supposed to also make sure that you're getting, like, the codes that they would use. So through our process here, our... Did the clinic require the assessment of the insurance? Um, the clinic did not initially, so- Okay our lawyer did.

Paying For An ART Risk Assessment

41:25

Okay. So our attorney mentioned before we get started on anything, send her insurance over to do an ART risk assessment, which is the name- Mm-hmm of the company. Yeah, so there's a couple companies out there that basically just... And this was a really weird, like, situation. So this was early on, so the date on this was July of 2025, so this was when we first started this conversation. Um, you basically signed up online. You paid them. It was $500. I'm pretty sure it was a little more for something else, and I can't remember what that was. Um, but anyways, you paid them, and then they have a agent basically from their department that calls your insurance. You have to, like- three, like three-way call at the beginning of it. So they called me then and were like, "Hey, we have your insurance on the line. Your insurance needs to verify that we can talk about your insurance plan." So you basically, we're hiring this company to talk to our insurance in a way that, like, they can get down to, like, all the codes and make sure that what needs to be covered is covered. 'Cause sometimes you can call your insurance, but if you don't know the right things to ask, they don't have to tell you. Like, Mm-hmm like that's, that's a crazy thing. Like, you can call and ask about your insurance, and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, like, I think so." Like, they give really- It says maternity they, yeah, they give really weird answers sometimes. It's like- Yeah don't you work for this company? Mm-hmm. Like, like I don't know how that works. I'm sorry if I'm talking about this and, like, there's people out there who are in this, like, in insurance world, but I don't understand that. Like, I feel like if you- No work for that company, you should, number one, give answers that, like, make sense, number two, are straight. Uh, maybe that's like in your company policy. Like, you're like, "I don't have to give the correct answer." Um, but anyways, long story short. No, it goes, it goes back to, remember when I said when I first joined the company that I work for- Mm-hmm prior to taking the job, I called their insurance to verify that it covered IVF. And so I'm on the phone with their insurance, and they said, "It says it covers infertility. It says it covers infertility." Mm-hmm. And so I'm like, "Okay, what does that cover?" And they were like- Mm-hmm "Well, it doesn't say. It just says it covers infertility." Well, it turns out it covers for infertility testing- Mm-hmm not for everything after. So yeah, it's, like you said, it's like if you don't have someone who knows how to actually ask and get those answers, it's hard. Yeah. So that's what our risk assessment did. Yeah. I didn't know that they called and did a three-way. That's very cool. Yeah, so like, it was like a three-way, and like the insurance agent was like, "Can you give all your information, and is it okay if we talk with this agent?" I was like, yeah. Like, it seems kinda like weird on a personal level, 'cause you're like, should I be sharing this info? But I mean, I guess it's just an insurance policy. Like, they're, they should be the same for a majority of people. So it's not like you're giving any, like, truly personal info. It's just kind of really weird. Um, 'cause he was like, "Okay, we're good. Like, we're gonna chat now." I was like, "Okay, I guess I'll go. Like, I'll leave you guys to talk." Um, but yeah, so then they just send like a big, um, basically like document that says like, we asked about this, this and this. This is what it mentions about- surrogacy and, like, your maternity coverage. Here's the reference number. Here's the codes that they said. Like, they give you, like, all the, all the stuff that hopefully we need to know to get this all covered. And of course, we're talking about this now, when we are only, you know, four-ish weeks into this process, so we're hoping everything goes as planned. We still aren't 100% sure, since, you know, I, like, I, I, number one, haven't gotten anything insurance-wise about the blood test yet or anything, so hopefully everything's covered and we just, you know, have co-pays. Um, we'll keep you up to date on all this along the way. But, but yeah, it's really still up in the air. We hopefully have done our due diligence and figured out what's covered and what's not. But, but yeah, it's, it's been wild already, and it's,

Birth Center Billing And Payment Plans

45:50

you know, not even all the way through. We are doing delivery, in the event that we get to delivery, a little different. We wouldn't be at a hospital. Mm-hmm. Um, is that, what is that cost like typically with insurance? Is that an insurance cost typically, or is it not? So, and what Yaya's alluding to is my last pregnancy I had, I went to the birth center, Bloomington Normal. Um, it is basically you're in between from a hospital environment to a home birth. So I really don't feel I am very confident in... I don't think I'm not confident, I just don't wanna have a baby in my living room. Um, I just- don't feel like that is the journey for me. Um, my friend Emma actually did a home birth this past year, and amazing, because I, I can't believe she did that. But, and my, my friend is a midwife and all this stuff. So, uh, she's like, "Come on, let's do a home birth." I'm like, "Nope." Um, But, so anyways, in Bloomington Normal they have that, um, home birth center, basically. They have midwives and they have nurses, and then they have just, like, three little rooms that are basically, like, homey environments. Um, so it's much, like, much calmer. They don't, they're not very invasive. So, like, when I was in the hospital with my first birth, you had to have an IV, you had to be hooked up to fluids, you had to be continuously monitored, like, with baby monitors. Like, they have things that, like, as a hospital they have to do. And when it's been proven that you don't always need these things. If you have a normal pregnancy and everything goes well, then you can, your body is capable of doing all this on your own. So that's what I liked about the home birth center, is they- Still do the monitoring on and off. You know what I mean? There's still medical personnel there to help you and to make sure everything's going well. So with coverage, um, that is a little different just because they basically, like, look into your insurance, and then they basically say, "Okay, this is what they estimate to cover," and then they basically just give you a payment plan on, like, your half of the payment. So you pay it all before the birth in a payment plan style fashion. Um, so then when you're good to go and you're ready for birth, it's all paid. So that's what's kind of nice. Like, you don't have to wait for it to go through insurance and all this other stuff. It's just kind of like an estimated on what they've already talked to the insurance company with. So- Got it that's kind of how that works. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. And you actually are usually released... Well, not usually. You are released within 24 hours, so it's not like an overnight stay, so that cuts out a lot of the cost. Um, they just require you, like, by law, to come back within 48 hours to make sure the baby is still okay. So they do all the checks, you know what I mean? They do all the usual stuff they do in the hospital, but you don't have to stay in a hospital room. So you get to go home, you get to relax, you get to be in your own environment, and then they're all very supportive there. That's what I, I love. They're very close, they're very nice, um, and they make you confident in, like, being able to take care of your, your newborn. So yeah, we can definitely talk about that and how that all works too as time gets closer. Um, but yeah, that's kind of the little bit of insurance coverage on that.

Transfer And Meds Not Covered

49:30

Um, so yeah, I guess issues that we ran into with, um, coverage so far. Um, so, oh my God, here we go. So we already talked about the transfer, um, and that not being covered. Um, and then meds. So meds for me were not covered. Like we said, those come from a specialty clinic. Um, so that's something that I didn't expect. I just figured it'd be covered. Yeah. So, um, essentially, they can't put the burden of cost on the gestational carrier. So the meds would never be covered by Haley, and the third-party pharmacy that the clinic used for this process didn't accept, um, our insurance because our insurance is not surrogate friendly, um, which- That was fun Crazy. Yeah, crazy Um, the, and Haley is not technically listed as, you know, someone to be covered by our insurance. Again, one of those things that's like had we known that ahead of time, we could have added Haley into our insurance during open enrollment, which again, we live and learn. So- Mm-hmm that, that did not get covered. The transfer was not covered. Um, same concept there. It, the burden of cost would not be put onto the gestational carrier, and our insurance did not cover her because she was not listed, um, in our insurance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I guess another tip, maybe also do a risk, like an ART assessment of if you're an IP, your own insurance, and that way you can get some more info on what all that entails. But there's just, like Yaya said, so many things you don't know until it pops up- "Oh, great." Like I- you don't think about the logistics of all this until you go through it. You just hope that like, "Hey, it's happening to my body, so I'd hope it'd be covered, but I guess not." Mm-hmm. I guess not. It's just, it's just insane to me. It is. Yeah. It's just, it's just so common now that things are not covered, and so many people have to do this nowadays, and it's just so difficult. Mm-hmm. Really. More difficult than it has to be. But, so yeah, personal stories we

Specialty Pharmacy Shipping Chaos

51:58

wanted to talk about. So I know there's probably other people out there who have had issues with meds arriving late, so my experience with this, um, when we first got, like, the green light to do this transfer, I feel like we had, like, less than a week where they were like, "Hey, you guys are good to go. We're gonna send you this text or whatever from this outside company for, to get your meds." And I was like, "Oh, great." Like, I remember I got a text. You said it, it was something like OnCloud or something or some... I forgot what the company was, and they did message me. But then, like- CloudRx two seconds... CloudRx. Yeah, yeah. So they messaged me, but then, like, two seconds later, I got another text that said, "Your thing has been transferred to a different pharmacy," so I didn't know what was up with that. So I think it was Encino, um, Pharmacy. So I got the text with that. They were like, "Hey, set up all your info. We'll set up a call with you to get everything shipped out." So I did that. I think it was within the day, so that was nice. Um, they called me, and they're like, "All right, who's covering this?" And I was like, "I don't know. Um," I was like, "I have no idea." I'm like, "Try mine?" So I think they tried mine. They're like, "Oh, yeah, your insurance doesn't, like, communicate with our pharmacy," or something. So she was like, "I'll call the, the IP and, you know, see if, like, it'll go through theirs." Um, but they were also like, "Hey, you have a refrigerated trigger shot, like, like, and it needs to be signed for medication." So I was like, "I-" I'm like, "I'm never home, like, during the day." And she's like, "Oh yeah, we can only give you, like, a four-hour window." And I was like, "Um, not gonna work." So I literally messaged... At first I asked Matt, I was like, "Are you gonna be home, like, any of these days?" And I don't think he was home, or he was gonna be sleeping or something. I can't remember. Um, but then I messaged Tammy, which, bless Tammy. Bless Tammy and Mike, um, Matt's parents. They have an office that's down the street, so I was like, "I gave them your address. I really hope that's okay." Um, it just, I think I me- I think I even addressed it to Mike Christiansen. So I was like, "Just sign Mike's name." I had no idea. This is so cool. Yeah, I was like, "So just sign Mike's name if he's not there," so, um, I was like, "Please just let me know when it's there." I'm like, "I'll go get it." Um, but yeah, at the end of the day it was all good, but they also ask you, like, what the date that you need it by, and I was like, "I don't know." I'm like, "They're just telling me to get all this stuff, and I don't have, like, our start date yet or, like, when I'm supposed to start meds." They were basically like, "Go pick up all this stuff from your pharmacy. Go get all this stuff, like, this mailed package for your other meds, and get it as soon as possible." So I feel like that was kind of, like, a very chaotic time that, like, didn't have a lot of direction as far as, like, here's your medication regimen, this is what you're going to start taking first. Because in that case, I started taking birth control for, like, a few weeks before I even needed any of the other medications. So I definitely feel like I didn't need to be as rushed as I was. And everything ended up showing up. It was all good. We did have an issue with trying to get birth control in, the specific birth control they wanted. Um, I remember being on call with the pharmacy and them being just like, "Yeah, we don't have it. Like, it's, uh, been on back order. We need to try to get it from a different pharmacy." I was like, "Okay, well I need it, like, tomorrow." "So, like, please." And then of course call back the next day and they're like, "Yeah, we still don't have it." I was like, "Can you reorder it? Like, I apparently really need this birth control." So, so yeah. And everything was on time and all good, but just another thing that, you know, has to do with insurance as well, so. One, I had no idea- what a blessing that, like, that's an option, right? And then two, I, again, I'm so grateful for, for, like- this hour with you once a week because I feel like we just- we just have conversations where in the busyness of life, we don't have these conversations. So I had no idea, but- Yeah yeah, I, when you explained to me that they had called for the medicine and stuff, it seemed like it was such a smooth process, whereas, like, for me, there were times where the clinic would say, "Okay, you're gonna get a call, and you'll be able to order your meds this week," and then I wouldn't get a call. Mm-hmm. And then I'm basically calling CloudRx- Mm-hmm and then they're like, "We have these medications, but there's another third party that will have X, Y, and Z medications," and then I'm calling them. And so I remember that was such an ordeal, Oh. Um, w- Yeah we did get some questions. Oh my God, yeah. Why don't we- Yeah why don't we address one or two and save some? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. Let's save some. Okay. All right. Wonderful. Let me pull it up. Random pick. Let's go. Spin the wheel. Let's go.

What Keeps Us Level Headed

57:18

We love, we love that you guys sent in messages, Let's do it. All right. Okay, what do we got? All right, so first question, "What books, podcasts, TV shows, or music has been keeping you level-headed?" Oof. Okay. Me, I love, I love WNBA, so, um, it is, it was opening day yesterday, so so excited. I'm gonna be busy watching, watching games now again. Um, I like listening to Post Moves. It's with Candace Parker, who retired recently. Um, I actually went and saw her when I was, my God, I don't even know what age, maybe, like, grade school. My dad took us and some of my friends to a game at Chicago Sky where she played at that time. Um, so it was really cool. She was a big player. Anyways, it's with Candace Parker and Olivia Boston, who is currently on my favorite team, the, um, Indiana Fever. So that's fun to listen to. They talk a little basketball. They talk just a little bit, like, life stuff, and it's funny. Um, the other one I kind of intermit- intermittently listen to is Call Her Daddy. Um, I don't listen- to, like... I know, I know it sounds weird. Um- No, I've heard their episodes. I just did not think that you would listen to that. Okay, so I, I honestly just picked it out of the blue. I don't know why. Number one, when I was- Maybe it was on one of your drives to Indy. Yeah, so I needed something to listen to on those long drives to Indy, and it just kind of popped up. I did try to listen to, like, some of her beginning ones, and she has, oh my God, I don't know how many, like, a lot. I don't like her early stuff. It's really, like... This is Alex Cooper, her name is. I don't even know honestly who she is. Um, I don't really like her early stuff. It's really, like- sexualized- Mm-hmm like I'm in college- Yeah, it was- and all this mm-hmm So I... That's not my favorite. It was two girls, right? It was two girls. Yeah, it was two girls, and they, it was like a collab, so they did Call Her Daddy. And I, that's what I know the podcast as. That's why I'm laughing, 'cause I'm like, I had no idea that you listened to this. Because when it first came out, I tried listening to a few of them, but they were just, they would, like, over-sexualize themselves, and I was just like, "This is icky. This is really icky." Yeah. No, so- So is it not like that anymore? It's better. Yeah, yeah. So if you listen to some of the stuff that she does now, she brings on, um, a guest every time basically. Or at least those are the ones I listen to. Um, so she either brings on, like, famous singers or, like, um, celebrities, or, like, they just talk, like, on a very, like, casual level about, like, their life or, like, how they grew up. Like, it's very, like, I don't know, it's more, like, informative of, like, you kinda get to know, like, some of these celebrities, I guess, on, like, a baser level. It's just fun. Um, some of them I do have to turn off 'cause I'm like, "I don't like your vibe." Um, so I won't, I won't- Of the guests or her? I think she's okay. She's all right. She's not my favorite. I really just like to listen to some of the, like, famous guest speakers on it. That's kinda it. Um, it's not, like, one of my top favorites, but again, I'm not a huge podcast person. Um, yeah, I, that's kinda all I listen to, otherwise just general music, and I do audiobooks, but that's just here and there, and whatever is on my phone, basically. So what about- Are you binge-watching anything? Um, when I'm home, yeah, a little bit. Um, right now I like the Yellowstone world, so anything to do with that I am all over. Can't wait for the new spinoff series, um, Dutton Ranch. So excited. That's coming out next month. Um, so that's stuff I like. I used to watch Grey's Anatomy a lot. I really don't. The Pit, we talk about The Pit. Mm-hmm. But that's over. Ugh, like, things are ending, and I need to, like, find new stuff to listen to. But then again, I also fall asleep when Grayson falls asleep at 9:00 PM, so I have zero time to watch anything. Fair. Fair Besides cart- besides cartoons and Disney movies, which is my entire life, I guess. So yeah, what about you? What about me? I, um, when it comes to music, I am very specific to what I'm listening to, because it has a time and place. So at work- Mm-hmm I listen to, um, either very, like, calm R&B, or I found this, like, really cool playlist. It's called Fresh Finds- Latino, and it's, like, very cool, like, indie Spanish, English music. It's very cool. Mm-hmm. It's like, it, like, makes me just feel like I'm just, like, groovy. I- Mm-hmm so I've saved a few of, like, some good ones into, like, a groovy playlist. But I listen to that when I'm at work. And in terms of audiobooks, I'll listen to audiobooks versus podcasts. I just restarted, um, I'm not gonna say I just started rereading, because I'm listening, but I just started Harry Potter from book one, uh, a few days ago. And I have not read Harry Potter since I was a kid. So I've not read Sorcerer's Stone since I was a kid, and that was- Mm-hmm before the movie. And I have been geeking out, because there's all these nuances- Mm-hmm of things that I, that are in the book and that are not in the movie, Yes so I just started relistening to that. And then typically, if I'm listening to music, um, it's because I'm working out. So if I'm running- Mm I'm listening to certain music. If I'm lifting, I'm listening to different music. Um, but yeah, that, that's what I've been listening to. I also have all the Harry Potter books on my, um, Audible, and I love, I love listening to those. It's so good. Number two, they made the new audiobooks where I think they have famous people talking in them. Yeah. Okay, yeah. It's the characters. Is that what... Yeah. Yeah. Is that what you're listening to? Yeah. So- Love it. Love it. Love it I, it's so cool, because Hagrid is Hagrid, Uncle Vernon- Yeah is Uncle Vernon, and- Yeah it's, it just brings the book to life. It's really cool. Yes, agreed. But, but yeah. No, that was a fun question. That was a fun question. That was a fun question. The next one I think would be good for our next episode, so I'm actually gonna save it. Perfect. That's fine.

Wrap Up And Send Questions

1:03:52

All right. I think we had a really good discussion to get today. Um, hopefully we fluffed it up a little bit for you guys, um, because who doesn't like to talk about insurance? But, um, again, hopefully, well, the next time we talk we won't have any big updates. We, we hope to see you next time. Yes. And, um, please don't hesitate to send us questions. We've got a- Mm-hmm good list of questions, and I can't wait for us to, to answer a question an episode. I think that would be really, really cool. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. Love you guys. Haley, I love you so much. And, um, Happy Mother's Day weekend. I hope you are showered with so, so, so much love. Um, and I love you. I love you. I love you, babe. I hope you have a great weekend yourself, and we will talk to you all next week? Next week. Yes. Ciao. Bye. Bye. Love you.